采访人：江铭
采访时间：2007年08月13日
采访地点：北京朝阳区798史晶工作室
Interviewer: Jiang Ming
Date: August 13, 2007
Location: Shi Jing’s Studio, 798 Art District, Chaoyang, Beijing
江铭（以下简称江）：你创作这些作品是出于一个什么样子的思路，在最早产生的时候是一个什么样子的动机？
Jiang Ming (referred to below as Jiang): What line of thought brought out these works you made? What was the motivation when they first appeared?
史晶（以下简称史）：当时是受到进步论的影响，就是想做出一种无法界定的东西。当时就不断地否定，几乎每个搞艺术的人都会碰到这种问题。 你需要不断地放弃某些东西，我用了减法。我把画面的色彩逐渐放弃，最后抽空，剩下了一种描绘运动， 。
Shi Jing (below as Shi): I was influenced by progressivism, and I wanted to make something that was indefinable. At the time I was endlessly denying, which is a problem most artists come across. You have to continually abandon certain things, and I was subtracting. I gradually discarded the colors in the images, and hollowed them out. What was left was a movement in sketch, and what emerged was a painting that appeared to have been dissected.
江：这些是在哪一年做出来的？
Jiang: What year did these come out?
史：得到这种结果的时候，是在1999年。在这之前，就像很多艺术家一样，接触很多门类，品种，也做过一些探索。在学习的过程当中，是很具体的，比如说立体主义，野兽派，抽象主义，但是当时我学的是舞台设计，空间、光学，创作一些假环境的东西。
Shi: I reached this result in 1999. Before this, I was like a lot of artists, coming in contact with all kinds of schools and types, and I did some exploration. In the learning process it was very specific, like cubism, fauvism, abstract, but what I was studying was stage design, space, lighting, things to create a fake environment with.
江：有没有直接触动你的一些东西，让你来做这些作品？
Jiang: Was there anything that touched you directly to have you make these works?
史： 之前我对画得厚重的东西比较喜欢，有表现主义的，比如说基弗尔那种厚重的绘画，还有对一些泥土的东西感兴趣。91年我曾经以一条农村土路的物质为材料还原它。后来就想把一些不该要的东西仍掉，你不该找一些修饰和装饰，往往最简单的那个就是你最需要的。 开始我是用玻璃胶在玻璃上画，就想画人生的一些印记，隐隐约约的一些记忆，一些体验，比如西客买走的那张就是画一些水印，然后是一些山，关注这些山是在关注我的老师， 我没有画最高峰，没有画世界屋脊，而是珠峰下面的那些山，它是人生的一种体验。有些高峰虽然没有珠穆峰高，但是就没有人登上去过，它有着另外的一种无法企及的高度。
Shi: Before that, I really liked heavy stuff with expressionism, like Kiefer’s heavy paintings. I was also interested in clay stuff. In 91 I restored it using the materials from a country dirt road. Then I started discarding some things I shouldn’t have had. You shouldn’t go looking for decorations and elaborations. The simplest stuff is always what you need the most. At first I was using glass glue on glass, like traces from a life, hidden traces, some experiences, for instance the painting that Sigg bought was just some watermarks, and then some mountains. Focusing on these mountains is focusing on my teacher; I didn’t paint a highest peak or the backbone of the world, but the mountains below Everest. This is a life experience. There are some mountains that, though not as high as Everest, have yet to be climbed by man. Those mountains have another kind of unsurpassable height.
江：在中国当代艺术有很多作品都是社会性的观念艺术，你为什么选择这种似乎与观念艺术无关的角度和思路？
In Chinese contemporary art, so many works are societal concept art. Why do you choose this path and perspective that seems to bear no relation to conceptual art?
史： 观念的东西是文化的产物，相比之下感性的东西与人更有直接的联系，笔触是感性的延伸和心灵统一。感性的东西它是很难以图片或者印刷的方式传输的。我曾坚持不做画册不发图片，实际上也是对图片与传媒的质疑。后来慢慢地给他们一些图片去发表，但是也很少。这次画册的制作是对印刷和传媒的可信度的质疑。 我在画一种尴尬。
Shi: Conceptual stuff is a product of culture. In comparison, perceptive stuff has a more direct link with people. The brush strokes are an extension of perception and the unity of the mind and spirit. Perceptive stuff is difficult to spread through pictures or print. For a time I persisted in not making catalogues and not sending out photos, which was basically suspicion towards photography and the media. Later I slowly gave them some images to present, but they were very few. The production of this catalogue is in suspicion of the believability of print and media. I paint a form of awkwardness.
江：为什么这么讲？
Jiang: Why do you say that?
史：它是现场和感性的，和空间时间有关系，但是这些画它不是装置，它也不完全是人们传统意义上的架上绘画，它在一个夹层里。这是这种画的意义，我们找到了观念的盲点 。制定一种让人的感觉释放的方式。
Shi: It is live and perceptive, and related to space. But these paintings are not installation pieces, nor are they completely canvas pieces in the traditional sense. They are in a layer in-between. This is the meaning of such paintings – we have found the blind-spot of concept. I have delineated a method that allows people to feel a release of perception.
江：你的作品虽然是从语言结构出发，但是你在作品内容的选择上也有你自己的思路，比如《伦勃朗》是欧洲艺术史上重要的画家，为什么这样选择？有特殊的想法吗？
Jiang: Though your works start out from language structure, you also have your own ideas in terms of choice of content. For instance, Rembrandt is an important painter in European art history. Why did you choose this? Did you have some special ideas?
史：画伦勃朗不是一个偶然。欧洲的古典艺术的审美是很有意思的，选择这个是对曾经爱好的一种弥补。选择伦勃朗还有另外一个含义，现在有一些学院老一辈的艺术家是有价值的，他们体验到的东西是珍贵的。但是面对人类精神不断扩张的现实，他们的价值还剩下多少。伦勃朗这种价值的代表。他当时是非常的新锐和前卫的。这种前卫精神在哪里？ 这种精神也很值得我们去研究。《伦勃朗》画的是它的残留物。
Shi: It wasn’t by chance that I painted Rembrandt. Classical European art has interesting aesthetics, and choosing this was homage to a previous hobby of mine. There’s another meaning in the choice of Rembrandt. There are now older artists at the academies who are of value, and what they’ve experienced is precious. But in the face of a reality where the human spirit is always expanding, how much more value will they be able to hold? Rembrandt represents this type of value. He was very cutting-edge and avant-garde at the time. Where is this avant-garde spirit? This spirit is worth our research. What I painted in Rembrandt is his remnants.
江：为什么选择欧洲，而不选择中国的艺术家呢？
Jiang: Why did you choose a European artist over a Chinese one?
史：我们是在面对世界。
Shi: We are facing the world.
江：你曾经提出了一个概念叫“视触觉”，你是怎么思考的？它的外延和内涵又怎么确定。
Jiang: You once brought up a concept called “visual sense of touch”. What are your thoughts on that? How do you determine its outer extensions and inner meanings?
史：“视触觉”不知道原来有没有这个词语，视觉里面有一种触摸性质的感觉。作为体验性的作品，“视触觉” 就自然来了，视觉的触摸感。比如《到达A点两种方式》，它是在描述一个瞬间情节。。。。。。欣赏一个漂亮身影的时候， 他会由她的手指到肩膀然后很本能的落到胸部，然后臀部，然后腿，然后在回到手指再回到自己的酒杯，这个过程可以在很短或很长的时间完成。我通过笔触描述他心理和脉搏的变化。慢慢跳动膨胀，然后慢慢消失。完全的触觉，形象成为一种借用。
Shi: I don’t know whether there was already a term such as “visual sense of touch”, but there is a feeling like touch within vision. As an experiential artwork, the “visual sense of touch” came naturally, a visual sense of touch. For instance, Two Ways to Reach Point A depicts an instantaneous plot… when appreciating a beautiful body profile, the man will go from her fingers to her shoulders and instinctually move to her chest, then her buttocks and on to her legs, then he will return to the fingers and back to his own beer glass. This process can be completed in a very short time or a very long time. Through brush strokes I depict the changes in his psychology and pulse. The pulsing slowly grows and then slowly disappears. It is totally touch, and the form becomes something borrowed.
江：你的作品在当代架上绘画里是比较特殊的一类，你创作这些作品出来和你个人的经历有哪些内在的联系？比如一些经历。
Jiang: Your works stand out as a very special type within contemporary on-canvas art. Where are the connections between your personal experience and the creation of these works?
史： 趣味性，我比较喜欢钻牛角尖， 但不想真钻成牛角尖了。这四年的课题主要是架上，架上在当代艺术的展厅里是在墙角位置的。但是我觉得架上应该有一些比较有意思的东西出来。实际上我内心是比较反叛的，比如我的白色的作品看起来是很内敛的、中庸的，实际上它是被解剖开的，这是我的两面性，它有一个表面一个内心，我得到这样的作品应该是很自然的。
Shi: A lot of it is in terms of interests. I like to split hairs, but not to the point that the hairs are split to the end. In these past four years, the theme has mostly been on-canvas. Canvas art is relegated the corners of contemporary art galleries. But I feel that canvas art should come out with some interesting stuff. I’m actually pretty rebellious inside. My white works look very reserved and moderating, but they are actually dissected. This is my two-faced nature. They have a surface and an inner level. I think that works like these are very natural.
江：面对这样一个商业性的社会，焦躁的状态，你为什么沉浸在这样一种研究的东西里面。
Jiang: In the face of such a commercialized society and anxious state of affairs, why do you wallow in this research stuff?
史：和社会完全的断裂开是没有价值的，这是很唯物的看法。但人类真正的瑰宝是“唯心主义”，它能够给所有的问题以价值。我知道自己爱好什么，重自己的人性， 才能更好的尊重别人的人性，获得你想要的东西。前天来了一个朋友，谈到价值的问题，我认同相对的价值。但《相对论》是 《唯心主义》的补丁，绝对的价值是不尊重人性的。做为一个职业工作者 ，不要找那些中庸、阐学、佛学来安慰自己，这很无聊，必须面对自己。有一千万和一块钱，做事情称心如意都是最棒的。 人的价值体现在哪些方面，它是强还是弱。我在画《印记》的时候有一些体验。
Shi: There’s no value in totally breaking off from society. This is a very materialistic view. But the true treasure of mankind is “mentalism” , which can give value to every issue. I know what I’m interested in, and only when I attach importance to my own humanity can I properly respect the humanity of others, so that you can get what you want. A friend came over the other day, and we talked about the issue of value. I recognize relative value. But Relativity is a patch for Materialism; absolute value has no respect for humanity. As a professional worker, you shouldn’t seek out the middle path, semantics or Buddhist studies to comfort yourself. This is worthless. You must face yourself. Whether you have ten million dollars or one dollar, the greatest thing is to be satisfied with what you do. Where do people’s values get embodied, and are they strong or weak? I had a bit of understanding about this as I painted Traces.
江：你认为它的价值在哪里？
Jiang: Where do you think its value lies?
史：实际上，这种价值我们是不用评价的，它只是一些质感和课题，感情停留的地方就产生了价值。人的价值是可大可小的，关键是感情能够停留多少停留多长，行尸走肉肯定没有价值。
Shi: Actually, we don’t need to assess this kind of value. It’s just some feelings and topics. The value is produced wherever the emotions stop by. People’s values can be big or small, but it’s all about how long your emotions can stop there; just roaming around is worthless.
江：普通的观众在欣赏你的作品时，你希望他从哪个角度切入你的作品？
Jiang: When the common audience is appreciating your works, from what perspective do you hope they enter into your art?
史：一个正常的人的角度 ，他喜欢就是喜欢，不喜欢就是不喜欢，我的作品是纯感性的，我要尊重别人的内心。我不想用一个很花哨的手段比如哲学把别人引进来。有些作品是专门做给少数人的，艺术其实也有服务性的，研究性的。我偏激的认为艺术家要以研究性的态度面对作品。如果是服务性的，可能就要考虑更多人的胃口和需要，这是很荒唐的事情。艺术和智慧是同义词。
Shi: From the perspective of a normal person, if he likes it, then he likes it; if he doesn’t like it, then he doesn’t. My works are purely perceptive. I must respect their psychologies. I don’t want to use garish means like philosophy and whatnot to pull people in. Some artworks are especially made for a minority of the people. Art has a service aspect and a research aspect. I strongly believe that artists should use a research attitude to face their artworks. If it is about service, then you have to think about the appetites and needs of more people, which is absurd. Art and wisdom are synonymous.
江：这种智慧性，有没有什么鉴别的方式？
Jiang: Is there any way to appraise this wisdom aspect?
史：我觉得人类的智慧取决于感觉。我们大脑操控神经与接受信息的方式是一样的。视觉、听觉、味觉，思维，首先是来源于感觉的。人类的智慧是这样出来的，他首先有感觉要表达，就发出声音，语言就出来了，为了解读世界，发明了数学，这就在感觉本体上面添加了两个东西，感觉的延伸，最后出现了人的更高的一些要求，比如艺术，艺术里面有两个部分，一部分属于唯物，一部分属于唯心，后来就分流了，一部分去做科学家，剩下的就是研究感觉，每一种描述方式都是对人的感觉和精神的重新再表达，重新解释人的感觉。所以作为智慧来说，艺术和感觉是密不可分的关系，观念，主义等等，实际是附着在文字触角上面的衍生物，而不是真正附着在人的感觉上面，所以现在观念艺术的弊端，捉襟见肘的地方暴露出来，它对人性的本身和人的感觉本身没有传达，甚至是一种误导，最后变成了空洞的修饰物。
Shi: I think that man’s wisdom derives from perception. The nerves that our brains control are the same ones we use to receive information. Vision, hearing, taste, thought, all of these begin with perception. Man’s knowledge emerged this way. He first had a perception he wanted to express, so he made sounds and language emerged. In order to decode the world, he invented mathematics. These added two things onto perception, extensions of perception, and later on there emerged the higher pursuits of man, such as art. There are two parts to art, the first belonging to the material, and the other belonging to the mental. Later on it split apart, with one part going on to be scientists, and the rest going on to research perception. Each different depiction method is a new re-expression of man’s perception and spirit, a re-explanation of man’s perception. So as far as wisdom is concerned, art and perception are inextricably linked together. Concepts, isms and everything else are things that grew off of the tentacles of words, not man’s perception. So now the abuses and problem-stricken aspects of conceptual art are exposed; it does not spread the essence of humanity and perception, to the point that it is misleading, and ends up as empty decoration.
江：为什么一些人面对一件作品的时候感触是不一样的？
Jiang: Why do different people feel different things in front of a single piece of art?
史：这是环境的问题，大陆内部生活的人，让它去海边，去轮船上，就会不适应。这是环境的问题。但是感觉的基础没有变，酸甜苦辣的起因是一样的。
Shi: This is an issue of environment. If you sent someone who lived on the mainland’s interior to the sea, on a boat, he wouldn’t be accustomed to it. This is an issue of environment. But the foundation of perception has not changed; sour, sweet, bitter and spicy are all the same.
江：但是好的作品是否有共同的智慧？
Jiang: But does a good work of art have a common wisdom?
史：好的作品是人类感觉最好的释放。艺术史上发生的那些事情，都是感觉释放最好的例子，实际上人的感觉是不安分的，想找到一些突破口，每一次都希望把自己解放出来，解放精神 。但精神是相同的,大脑构成是一样的。
Shi: A good work of art is the best release for man’s perception. Those things that happened in art history are all the best cases of a release of perception. In truth, man’s perception is discontented, and wants to find a breakthrough. Every time he hopes to free himself, free the spirit. But the spirit is similar, and the brain’s construct is the same.
江：你觉得你的作品找到那种感觉了么？达到那种释放吗？
Jiang: Do you think that your works have found that sense? Have they reached that release?
史：我做了很小的一个方面。可能有些人认为我是发明和注册了一种语言，我不这样认为，我认为我是发现了这样方式。发现和选择了油画语言中的这种方式，和人联系起来把这种可能性放大，精神可以这样画，这样释放。方法论上我强调解剖分析法，语言结构一刀一刀切开，通过自身体验释放，放大。
Shi: What I’ve done is a very small part. There may be some people who think that I’ve invented and registered a language, but I don’t see it that way. I think that I’ve discovered this method. I have discovered and chosen this method within oil painting language, and linked together with others to expand this possibility. The spirit can be painted this way, and released this way. In terms of methodology I emphasize dissective analysis, cutting open language structure slice by slice, releasing and expanding through my own experience.
江：架上作品你有没有想谈谈的东西？
Jiang: Is there anything you want to talk about for your canvas works?
史：通过架上作品，最大的收获就是得到一种可以精准分析的分析法，这种精准也是对艺术家来说，不是对科学家。另外是通过对视觉的解剖获得一些研究成果 。 把画面和图像剥开，让它们分道扬镳。
Shi: Through canvas artworks, my biggest gain has been that I have gotten a precise method of analysis. This precision is for an artist, not a scientist. Another thing is that I’ve gained some research results through the dissection of vision, cutting open the image and picture, splitting them apart.
江：你最近的这个装置是怎样一种想法，为什么从架上转向做这样的装置作品？
Jiang: What are your thoughts on your recent installations, why did you transfer it from the canvas into an installation piece?
史：我发现那些人在演奏时，那些乐器真的太美妙了！曲子非常优美的同时，我发现乐器是很美的。音乐符合人的听觉，人体工程学。小时候想学音乐，后来还是学了绘画，但是这种情怀一直没变。03年就在想这个问题，还是很想做乐器。但是这批绘画还没有一个明晰的结果，黑色的系列从05年年底开始画，画到现在。去年年底做了两个作品，投毒和写字的，写字是一个现实主义的方式，实际上在五六十年代意大利就有个女艺术家用下体，笔插在阴道里画画。实际上是再次使用，我称为现实主义，可能跟“后感性”是有关系的，但是我觉得还不够，应该更加切入到现实的深层。今年开始做这个乐器， 但都不是传统意义上的那种乐器。
Shi: I realized that when those people were performing, those instruments were really amazing! While the song itself was beautiful, I realized that instruments are beautiful. Music is suited for people’s sense of sound, human engineering. I wanted to learn music when I was little, and I ended up learning painting, but I’ve always had this sentiment for music. I was thinking about this problem in 2003, and I still really want to make instruments. But I still haven’t come to a clear result with this batch of paintings. I started on the black series in 2005, and I’m still doing them. I made two works at the end of last year, on poison and writing. Writing is a realist method. In fact, there was an Italian female artist in the fifties or sixties who was using her lower body, painting with a pen inserted in her vagina. This is really a reuse, and I call it realism. Maybe it’s linked to “post-perception”, but I think it’s not enough. It should go further into the depths of reality. I started making this musical instrument this year, but it’s not a musical instrument in the traditional sense.
江：能不能具体谈一下这个作品的思路和设计方案。
Jiang: Could you talk specifically about the ideas and design for this work?
史：乐器是感觉的产物它直接从属于精神，发明各式各样的“乐器”就选择了不同的感觉；当时我去欧洲作展览的时候，发现几乎每一座城市每一条街上都有教堂，每个教堂几乎都有管风琴，使我内心的有一种触动，觉得音乐太美妙了，然后我想我要做一个管风琴。但是一直在想怎么做，后来就想到利用旋转的风洞效应，最有意思的是，这个东西作出来后，声音非常小。
Shi: Musical instruments are the product of perception and belong to the spirit. The discoveries of all kinds of “instruments” are choices of different types of perception. When I went to Europe, I discovered that nearly every street of every city had a church, and nearly every church had a pipe organ, which touched me deep inside. I felt that music was just so amazing. Then I wanted to make a pipe organ. But I always felt that I wanted to use the effects of a turning wind cavity. What’s most interesting is that once I made it, the sound was really small.
江：小到什么程度？
Jiang: How small?
史：小到几乎听不见。但是我觉得另外一个东西很大，它这种和我的画就造成一种暗合。该有的很少，没有的很多。如果有一个很专业的人，弹奏的时候，所有的音准都不是乐谱想要的，他弹奏的只是他的内心。观看他弹奏的人，也能看到自己的内心。我觉得这是唯心主义最贴切的一种释放方式。这是尊重人性。
Shi: To the point that you almost can’t hear it. But I think that something else is very big, so they coincide. There’s very little of what should be there, and a lot of what isn’t. If there is a very professional person, who when playing an instrument, plays everything but what’s on the score, then he is only playing what is inside of him. If you watch the person playing, you can see inside of him. I think that this is the method of release that’s follows materialism the closest. This is respect for humanity.
江：有点 “大音稀声”的感觉。
Jiang: That’s a bit like a “loud silence”.
史：确实是阴差阳错的，本来我想让它有很大的声音。体量上很大很强烈，声音实际上小。它从内心里面震撼。
Shi: It’s a rearrangement of yin and yang. I wanted a big sound. It has a huge body, but the sound is small. This hits you on the inside.
江：它的结构有什么特殊的？
Jiang: What’s special about its structure?
史：这设计当时我想它像个旗杆，上面插上管子。
Shi: The original design was to make it like a flagpole, with the pipes up top.
江：设计原理是按照乐器的原理设计的吗？
Jiang: Did the design follow musical instrument guidelines?
史：不是，我把图纸找了一个工程师，本来不想让这个东西有什么观念性的，结果它出来就很观念。其实还好，它并没有出声，样子很像枪。和钢琴的原理是一样的，按得轻声音就很小，按得重声音就大，转的也快。这个高度是6米8，整个乐器材料是铁钢管。每一组有一个按钮来控制。有一个电动装置。
Shi: No. I took the drawing to an engineer. I didn’t want it to be very conceptual, but it came out conceptual anyway. That’s still good. Before it even made a sound, it looked a lot like a gun. It follows the principles of a piano, if you play the light sounds then the sound is small, and the heavy sound is big. It changes quickly too. It is 6.8 meters high, with iron and steel pipes. Each grouping is controlled by a button. There’s an electrical installation.
江：你制造一个这样的东西，有什么意义呢。
Jiang: What is the meaning of making something like this?
史：我觉得在这个作品上，对于社会的意义我还没有想到有什么，没有想过太多，但是我想把这个乐器注册了，这是一个设计发明，这样才能更好的服务社会，如果把它立在一个广场上，它也可以出很大的声音，大家都可以来使用它。而且我做的声音若是和传统的音质不同，这样大家会觉得更有意思。
Shi: I think that in this work, I haven’t really thought of a social significance. I haven’t put much thought to it, but I want to register this instrument, because it is a design invention. In that way it can better serve society. If I erect it in a square, it can make a lot of noise, and everyone can come and use it. And if the sound I make is different from traditional sounds, everyone will find it more interesting.
江：因为这个东西和音乐有关，它产生之后对传统的音乐有什么影响？
Jiang: This is related to music, what effect will it have on traditional music once it’s made?
史：音乐艺术家很多做的实验非常好。历史上有一个音乐叫：沉默三分钟。 我这个东西，是感觉的触摸器，它不是哲学，但是能让你去用它。。。。一些真东西，投毒就是投毒，写字就是真的写，乐器就是真乐器。 通过发明直接针心灵及灵感的物品，制定一些释放方式，会有一些发现，并提供一个些映照。
Shi: There are a lot of good experiments being done by musical artists. In history there is a type of music called “three minutes of silence”. This thing of mine is a perception sensor. It isn’t philosophy, but it can make you use it… with some real things, poison is poison, writing is writing and instruments are instruments. Through the invention of an object aimed at the spirit and inspiration, one can formulate some methods of release. There will be some discoveries, and they will shine some light.