Cang Xin’s career began, in the public eye, as a performance artist. As was frequently the case with the works of performance artists, which relied upon a live audience to complete the piece according to the artist’s intent, in time, the medium of photography became equally significant to his approach. It was both document, in the case of performances that were possible to do in front of a live audience, and original work, where Cang Xin travelled to remote landscapes to produce the more recent series he titles Man and Sky as One. In this new departure into photography, we also find the seeds of new ideas emerging, and which have particular relevance to the increasing use of symbolism in his sculptural works and the imagery in his drawings. These aspects of the newer works are inspired by the artist’s fascination with early, prehistoric societies and their mystical aspects, both in terms of the rituals they practiced and the superstitions that they held, for all of these things played a part in shaping the cultural relics they left behind. Relics alone give us a clue to the ancestry to which we are all heir, no matter how far removed.

在公众的眼光看来，苍鑫的事业起步于行为艺术家。行为艺术家的作品依赖于活体观众根据艺术家的意图及时地完成作品创作，正如那些作品所经常展现的，摄影媒介逐渐与苍鑫的方法具有同等的意义。作为能够在现场观众面前进行表演的行为，它既是记录性质的，也是一种原始作品，苍鑫前往遥远的地方去创作更多的系列，他将之命名为“天人合一”。在这次与摄影的新结合中，我们仍旧可以发现新思想的种子在闪耀，这些思想萌芽与象征主义在他雕塑作品中越来越多的应用及其绘画作品中的形象有着特殊的关联性。作者对早期史前社会及早期人类进行的宗教仪式和所持有的迷信的熟悉激发了这些较新作品中的方方面面，因为，上述提到的所有事物都对早期人类遗留下的文化遗迹的形成起到了一定作用。那些遗迹为我们提供了一条寻觅祖先的线索，那是我们共同的祖先，无论已经相隔了多远。

Where the “body” of the performance artist is so integral to their art, so the personal history of this artist is equally entwined within the artworks that he has developed since the early 2000s. Whilst the same can be said of the works he produced in the 1990s, particularly Trampling Faces, produced in 1994, in recent years it has become both more apparent, and fundamental to the thought processes that drive the art.
行为艺术家的“躯体”与他们的艺术紧密融合在一起，因此，艺术家苍鑫的个人经历就与其在21世纪创作的艺术作品缠绕在了一起。同样，他在20世纪90年代创作的作品也是如此，特别是1994年的“踩脸”。近年来，这一特点呈现得越来越明显，并且在艺术形成的过程中起到基础作用。

Cang Xin’s most recent exhibition, Cang Xin’s Mythology, represents a major advance. Here, many of the motifs by which his work is recognised—the protruding tongue, his own features, a bestiary of his own invention, juxtapositions of surreal beings and fantastical settings, finally achieve their own life force. They no longer feel appropriated or borrowed: Cang Xin has made them his own, and enabled them to speak to us, and one senses to future generations. This is no small achievement. The power of the mind is enormous, and yet its workings remain largely unknown. We dream, we experience myriad emotions, sensations, and conjure spirits from the ether that assuage our fears even as they fill us with dread. On one level the motifs he deploys are similar to the “curiosities” in Albertus Seba’s “cabinet” . But they are more pertinently related to the wonders of China’s own Classic of the Mountains and Seas, the Shan Hai Jing, from which inspiration for numerous of the strange combinations of man and beast was drawn. Again, personal history is an integral part of the mysterious working of Cang Xin’s mind, and the striking image of the works that have resulted from his experience, and thought processes that consume him.
苍鑫最近的展览“苍鑫神话”表现出了主要的进步。其中，构成其作品的众多主题——伸出的舌头、他的自有特征、独创的动物语言集、超现实主义生物的并置以及奇幻的设置，最终都获得了它们自己的生命力量。它们不再感觉到是被欣赏的或是被借用来的：苍鑫令它们成为了他自己的元素，并且赋予它们对我们说话的能力，它们感知到了未来。这并不是小小的成功。这一思想的力量是巨大的，尽管这个力量还有很多人尚未熟悉。我们做梦, 经历无数的情感和感情，并且向苍天祈求免去他赋予我们的恐惧。在某个层面上，苍鑫所设置的主题与艾尔伯特•瑟巴 (Albert Seba) 的“私人访” 1中的“珍奇之物”有些类似。但是它们更多地与中国传统的《山海经》中的概念相关联，在《山海经》中，有许多关于人兽融合在一起的奇思怪想。我们再一次提到，个人经历是苍鑫头脑中神奇艺术创作不可或缺的一部分，作品中富有冲击力的部分就是来自于他的经历和他所承担的思想历程。

Karen Smith (KS):I’d like to begin by talking about you, if you don’t mind. “You” seem critical to the direction in which your work has developed. Where were you born?
Cang Xin (CX): In Baotou, in Inner Mongolia.

KS:Then you moved to Hebei province when you were five?
CX: Yes, to a slightly remote place outside of Handan.
凯伦•史密斯（以下简称KS）：如果您不介意，我将开始谈关于您的。“您”看起来对您工作发展的方向很挑剔。您出生在哪里？
苍鑫（以下简称CX）：内蒙古包头市。

KS:It would appear that the place in which you spent your first years had had some impact upon your work. For example, the choice of certain sites that were chosen as the back drop for your performance art works for the Man and Sky as One series. It would seem that these are more than just beautiful wildernesses, but that these places relate to your life. Am I right in thinking that the majority of the photographic works in the Man and Sky as One series are sited in Inner Mongolia, or the Dongbei region, or in remote parts of western China?
KS： 看起来，您度过童年的地方对您的作品有一定的影响。例如，对于您的行为艺术作品“天人合一”背景的某些部分的挑选。看起来，它们不仅仅是美丽的野外风光，而是一些与您生活相关的地方。我认为“天人合一”系列中的大多数摄影作品取景都位于内蒙古或东北地区，或是中国西部遥远的地方，是吗？
CX:More or less. I began working on the Man and Sky as One series in 2002. The location for the first piece was in Dongbei, near Daqing. I think of myself as being from Dongbei, as both my parents came from the Dongbei region. They relocated to Inner Mongolia after they finished their schooling, and were married there too. Although for that reason I was born in Inner Mongolia, my bloodline belongs to Dongbei.
Much of my work centres on my exploration of the idea of bloodlines. It is about tracing the source of my bloodline, its origins, and the background history that combines to my ethnicity and identity. That was the reason I initially chose Dongbei as the setting for my work. It is an extreme, hard, cold land. In order to reflect its elemental nature, my first work was made during winter, on ice. I intended the image to evoke the culture and lifestyle of the nomads and hunters that traditionally inhabited the lands north of the Great Wall.
CX： 或多或少有一些的。2002年，我开始创作“天人合一”系列。第一幅作品的取景在东北，靠近大庆。我想我自己是来自东北的，我的父母也是东北人。他们完成学业之后重回内蒙古，并且在那里结了婚。尽管我出生在内蒙古，但是我的血统属于东北。
我的作品中很多部分集中于我对血统概念的探究。它有关于追寻我自己血统的源头、起因以及与我的种族性和特性揉合在一起的背景历史。那就是我为什么最初选择东北作为我作品取景的原因。那是一片广袤、坚硬、寒冷的土地。为了反映出它的自然本质，我的第一幅作品是在冬天的冰面上完成的。我想让那个景象唤醒那些世世代代居住在长城以北地区的游牧民和狩猎人的文化和生活风格。

KS: You were very young when you left Inner Mongolia. Too young almost for this place to have made a distinct impression of your formative years, although that period of life is critical in shaping the personality we become. But Inner Mongolia clearly seems to have left its mark upon your memory, even at such a young age. Was that the case, or were you impressions formed over subsequent visits at a later stage in your life, perhaps going back to retrace your family line?
KS： 当您离开内蒙古时，您还非常小。年岁之小几乎让这片土地未能给您的童年留下清楚的印象，尽管生命最初的那段时期是形成我们个性的关键。但很显然，内蒙古在您的记忆中留下了深刻的印记，虽然您当时还那么小。那么，是不是您的印象促使您在日后进行了一系列的探访，或许会重新追寻您家族的遗迹？

CX:In truth, I didn’t have a very solid impression of Inner Mongolia when I left. I barely knew how the world worked when I was five years old. But I do have a surprisingly clear memory of the journey from Inner Mongolia to Hebei, first on the train, for the longest part of the journey, and then on the public bus for the last part across Hebei, to the factory outside Handan. I have a very deep impression of the claustrophobic, oppressive even, atmosphere on the train, and the physical exhaustion of travel.
CX： 实际上，当我离开内蒙古时，我并没有什么深刻的印象。当我还只有五岁大的时候，我几乎都不知道世界是怎样的。但是，我对从内蒙古前往河北的那段旅程有着非常清楚的记忆，坐火车，旅途漫漫，然后又坐公共汽车横穿河北，抵达了位于邯郸城外的工厂。我对火车上那种幽闭甚至压抑的感觉以及旅途的劳累都记得很清楚。

KS:Was that your first train ride?
CX:Yes.

KS:Your destination in Hebei was a factory, correct?
CX:Yes. A factory manned by the “railway soldiers”, which meant it was under the control of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). These “soldiers” were a special division of the PLA, whose job it was to lay railway tracks across the country. The factory had been built that year in 1972, and completed just before we arrived there. The living conditions were extremely primitive. It was a brand new venture and the workforce comprised people who had been sent there from all over China: Dongbei, Tianjin, and Inner Mongolia, though mostly from Dongbei.

KS: One of the articles about your work described your mother as being from a “land owning” family, which would have made her a “black element” within society during that era. Was this work assignment imposed upon her as a punishment due to her family’s status?
CX:No. My mother was a nurse in No. 6 Hospital in Baotou. My father was a steel construction worker. They were simply transferred to Hebei by their work units.

KS：那是您第一次坐火车？
CX：是的。

KS：您在河北的目的地是一家工厂，对吗？
CX：是的。那家工厂由“铁路士兵”操纵着，也就是说它是由中国人民解放军（以下简称“解放军”）管理的。这些“士兵”是解放军的一支特殊分队，他们的任务就是在全国铺设铁路。这座工厂始建于1972年，就在我们抵达之前才刚刚竣工。那里的住宿条件非常简单。它是一个新的征程，所有的工人来自于祖国各个地方：东北、天津和内蒙古，大部分来自东北。

KS：有一篇介绍您作品的文章说您的母亲出生于一个“地主”家庭，这个出身使她在那个年代成了社会中的“黑色元素”。那份强加给她的工作安排是不是作为对她家庭出身的惩罚呢？
CX：不是那样的。我母亲是包头第六医院的一名护士。我父亲是一名钢铁建筑工人。他们只是因为工作需要才被调动到河北的。
KS:The same article suggested that your parents had come from different backgrounds and were forced to divorce as a result. It also said that it was following this divorce that you accompanied your mother to Hebei.
CX:That’s a misunderstanding: as I said, my father went too. It was after my parents had been in Hebei for a period of time that they decided to divorce.

KS: You are fond of describing yourself as Manchurian. You mentioned your parents were from Dongbei, but were they both Manchurian?
CX:My mother is, but my father is Han. Following the divorce, I took my mother’s surname. However, that was not strange, as it is customary for Manchu people that children take their mother’s surname.

KS:That’s interesting. Most commonly in China, a major significance of a son is that he carries the family name forward, continuing the bloodline. What about Manchu girls?
CX: Girls would take their father’s surname. Today, the tradition has largely been abandoned. Manchu people follow the Han ways.

KS:So, you grew up in Hebei rather immersed in Han culture?
CX: Yes, from the age of five to 18.

KS：同样那篇文章还暗示说您的父母有着不同的背景并因而被迫离婚。还有说法是，在那次离婚之后，您陪伴着您的母亲来到了河北。
CX：那完全是一种误解：正如我说过的，我父亲也一同去了。我父母已经在河北待了一段时间之后他们才决定离婚的。

KS：您乐于将自己称为满族人。您也提到您父母是来自于东北的，那他们是不是满族人呢？
CX：我母亲是，但我父亲是汉族。他们离婚之后，我就随母亲姓了。但那并不奇怪，因为满族人有孩子跟随母亲姓的习惯。

KS：那很有趣。在中国一般认为，儿子的主要责任是传宗接代，延续家族血统。满族姑娘呢？
CX：姑娘们随父亲的姓。时至今日，很多传统都变了。满族人民也沿袭汉族传统了。

KS：那么，您在河北长大，融入了汉族文化？
CX：是的，从五岁到十八岁。

KS:How did you discover an interest in art?
CX:I believe that it had a lot to do with the fact that I came from a very unhappy family. When I was young, and my parents were going through their divorce, they fought all the time. I found it very distressing, and often stayed away from home for days on end. My parents had no time to take care of us [Cang Xin and an older brother five years Cang Xin’s senior]. We spent our time outside, playing, getting into trouble, and having fun.

KS: Where did you stay?
CX:With neighbours and our friends’ families. It left me with a very unhealthy picture of family life: it was a profoundly unhappy experience.

KS: How long did the divorce take to process?
CX: Almost two years. It seemed like a very long time. Divorce is a complicated process in China. First, the work unit gave marriage counselling sessions to discourage the couple from divorcing. Then there were the efforts made by the community…the neighbours.

KS: The article gave the impression that your parents divorced due to differences in their social background, so I had assumed it was a straightforward affair.
CX:Nothing in China is ever straightforward. Because we came from a “bad” family, on my mother’s side, when my brother and myself were seen out with my mother we would be abused by other children, which didn’t happen if we were with my father. This created an enormous amount of tension for my mother. She decided that the best thing for the family, for her children, was a divorce—to put a distance between herself and us.
But my father loved my mother enormously so he didn’t want a divorce. My father’s department head tried to keep their marriage together for my father’s sake. The stress of their divorce was created by pressure of the local society, not the law. It was not easy to shoulder. Especially for people from Dongbei [who are habitually fiercely proud]. If a person was divorced, everyone looked down on the family. There were strict moral codes at that time, unlike today.

KS: You left Hebei at the age of 18. Where did you go?
CX: After I graduated from high school, I enrolled in Tianjin Music Academy.

KS：您是如何发现在艺术方面的兴趣的？
CX：我认为这与我来自一个不幸的家庭有很大关系。在我小时候，我父母离婚之前，他们一直吵架。我觉得特别苦恼，所以常常整天离家在外。我父母没有时间来照顾我们（苍鑫和苍鑫五岁大的哥哥）。我们把时间都花在外面，玩耍，闯祸，玩得很开心。

KS：你们待在哪儿呢？
CX：待在邻居家和我们朋友的家里。这让我对家庭生活留下了特别不好的印象：那是一段相当不愉快的经历。

KS：这场离婚经历了多久？
CX：差不多两年。那段时间似乎特别长。在中国，离婚是一件复杂的事情。首先，工作单位要进行婚姻调解，让夫妻放弃离婚。随后，还有来自社会……邻居的压力。

KS：那篇文章所反映出来的是，您父母的离婚是由于他们社会背景的不同，所以我认为那是一件很简单的事情。
CX：在中国没有什么事情是简单的。因为我们来自“坏”家庭，我母亲的出身不好，当我哥哥和我跟我妈妈一起出去时，其他小孩就会欺负我们，而当我们和爸爸出去时就不会这样。这对我母亲带来了极大的压力。她做出了对家庭最有利的决定。为了她的孩子，她选择了离婚——在她和我们之间拉开距离。
但是我父亲非常爱我母亲，他不愿意离婚。为了我父亲，我父亲的部门领导想要维持这段婚姻。他们离婚的压力是由地方社会造成的，而不是由法律带来的。这太不容易了。特别是对于从东北来的人们（他们特别得骄傲）。如果有人离婚了，那大家都会瞧不起这个家庭。和今天不一样，那个时候有着严格的道德规范。

KS：您在1993年来到北京。是什么让您决定这次迁移的？
CX：在那段时间里，我努力想成为一名画家，我认识在邯郸的所有艺术家。通过他们，我认识了批评家栗宪庭（一位邯郸本地人，在新艺术运动中后毛泽东时期最重要的批评家和艺术作家之一）。这些朋友经常拜访他在北京的住所，也在圆明园艺术家村消磨时光。
我记得在1993年的夏天，我与另外一位来自邯郸的艺术家朋友在一起，他叫索探，现在居住在通县。我们成了栗宪庭家中的常客。有一天，我们在那里遇见了马六明。我正在对老栗（好朋友对他的亲密称呼）表示我想到北京来发展事业。在邯郸，艺术家发展的环境实在太差了。他鼓励了我，建议将圆明园村作为事业起点。但是我感觉那儿已经有太多的人了。就在那时马六明提到了一个新的正在形成中的社区，在北京东面的长城饭店后面。他说那儿值得一看。我发现有五个人住在那儿，包括张洹和三个同学，还有马六明。我认为那房子挺适合我的要求。地点也不错，于是我就搬进去了。

KS：您那时候认识荣荣吗？
CX：不，他那时还没有加入进来。那个地方最大的好处就是房租特别低。那时候60平米才80块钱。对我来说那不仅是便宜，而且是一处相当大的空间。时间慢慢地走到了1993年岁末，更多的人来到了这个社区……诅咒、段英梅、荣荣、孔布和朱溟……

KS: I didn’t know you were acquainted with Li Xianting so early on. In that case, what was the cause of the outburst at my birthday party in 1995?
CX:I can’t really recall clearly. I was very drunk.

KS:I was under the impression that your anger was directed against him because you felt he had not openly acknowledged the East Village performance artists.
CX:Before we went to the event, we had already decided to each [Zhang Huan, Ma Liuming and Cang Xin] do a performance. Zhang Huan decided to shave off all his hair and burn it. The smell was incredible. My work involved fifteen candles. I planned to light them, place them around the cake, and then to put them out one by one with my tongue. It was pretty chaotic that night.
Having shaved his head, Zhang Huan then took my candles. I was really annoyed. He had no right to do that. I was furious…and the next thing I knew the cake was on the floor. Li Xianting naturally thought we were trying to make trouble. But it wasn’t planned like that. It was never our intention, but of course, Li Xianting was really annoyed by us.

KS:The East Village came to an end soon afterwards in 1995. What happened?
CX:Yes, by October it was all over. I had been arrested once in the summer of 1994. Zhu Ming and Ma Liuming were arrested first. We fled. When I returned, I moved further east with Zhang Huan. When Ma Liuming was released, he also rented a place in the vicinity. He was afraid to go out in case he was detained again. It all fell apart then really.

KS：我并不知道您那么早就认识了栗宪庭。如果是那样的话，1995年在我生日聚会上的那次爆发的原因是什么？
CX：我记不清了，我喝得很醉。

KS：在我的印象中，您的怒火直指栗宪庭，因为您认为他没有公开认可东村的行为艺术家。
CX：在我们前去赴宴之前，我们就已经决定每个人[张洹、马六明和苍鑫] 都表演一个行为。张洹决定剃下他所有的头发然后烧掉。那气味是令人难以置信的。我的作品和十五支蜡烛有关。我打算点亮它们，将它们摆放在蛋糕周围，然后用我的舌头一支支地舔灭它们。那一晚的场面相当混乱。
剃完头发之后，张洹把我的蜡烛拿过去了。我真的非常不高兴。他没有权利那么做。我愤怒了……下面我所知道的就是，蛋糕跑到地板上去了。栗宪庭很自然地就认为我们是想制造麻烦。但实际上我们并没有打算那么做。那从来都不是我们的本意，但显然，我们令栗宪庭非常生气。

KS：1995年之后，东村很快就走向了终点。发生了什么？
CX：是的，到了十月份那里就都结束了。1994年夏天我曾经被捕过。朱明和马六明先被抓了。我们逃走了。当我回来的时候，我和张洹搬向东边更远的地方。马六明释放的时候，他也在附近租了一个地方。他很害怕外出以防再次被抓。随后东村就真的分崩离析了。
KS: The number of works that you created during this time was small. The most memorable work was Trampling Faces produced in 1994? Can you describe this piece?
CX: Yes, between October and December. We had already moved further east, away from the East Village, by that time. The work contained 1,500 masks, each one cast in a mould over a period of three months. It was a full time job making them as I did it all myself.

KS:That situation is quite different from today. It seems almost every artist has an assistant, or several, to do this kind of work for them…How did you fund it back then?
CX: Plaster was very cheap. The total cost was only about 1,500RMB, although that was still a lot at that time. I borrowed some, and did odd jobs to earn the rest.

KS：您在这段时期内所创作的作品数量很少。最难忘的作品是不是1994年创作的“踩脸”？您能描述一下这幅作品吗？
CX：是的，那件作品创作在十月和十二月之间。在那个时候，我们已经搬往了东边更远的地方，远离了东村。这幅作品包含了1500张面具，每一幅面具都在模具里铸造了三个多月。这是一项全天工作，因为这都是我一个人完成的。

KS：那时情况和现在很不一样。几乎每个艺术家都有一位或多位助手来为他们做这类工作。……您是如何为它筹资的呢？
CX：塑料是非常便宜的。总成本只有大约1500块钱，虽然那时候这还是一笔挺大的数字。我借了一部分，剩下的都是打工挣来的。

KS:The next major group of works was the Communication series?
CX:Yes. This is a series in four parts. The first began in 1996 and comprised 12 images. The second, made in 1999, contains 54 images. The third series, done in 2001, centres on objects found in a supermarket and therefore the list of individual pieces is long, maybe as many as seventy or eighty photographs. The fourth is about place, famous places in counties all over the world. This is an on-going series—I try to take a photograph whenever I travel for exhibitions—and to date comprises approximately twenty pictures.

KS:What was the inspiration behind the Communication series?
CX:It goes back to the incident with the cake in 1995 that we just talked about. After the event, I felt extremely stressed. I was responsible for creating a huge affray. Lao Li [the familiar term of address for friends and close acquaintances] was a revered personage, and prior to this we had enjoyed a good relationship. As a result, for the next year, I barely left my house, and instead shut myself away, communicating with the outside world only through written postcards, seeing almost no one. This induced a serious state of depression. I found it increasingly difficult to communicate. I developed a stutter, well it was there before—it became noticeable when I was locked up in 1989—but it wasn’t really serious before. I also experienced many weird dreams.
At the same time, I craved communication, and to be part of the art activities that were going on in the world outside. One day, I began to pick up objects in my home and lick them. I didn’t consider this to be an art work at the time. It was about making contact with the world again. Another artist named San Mao was living next to me at the time and he began photographing me as I did this. That became the basis for Communication 1.

KS：接下来主要的作品集是“交流”系列？
CX：是的。这一个分成四部分的系列。第一部分的创作开始于1996年，包含了12个形象。第二部门，1999年完成，包含54个形象。2001年做了第三系列，主要是在一家超市里发现的对象，因此个人形象非常多，大概有七十或八十张相片。第四部分有关地点，全世界各国的著名地方。这是一个发展着的系列——无论何时我前往展出时我都试图留下一张照片——包含着大约二十张相片。

KS：“交流”系列背后的灵感是什么？
CX：这得回到我们刚谈到的1995年那个蛋糕事件。那件事之后，我感觉压力特别大。我对那场大争吵是有责任的。老栗（朋友和熟人的熟悉称呼）是一位令人尊敬的前辈，在此之前，我们的关系非常好。因此，随后的一年，我几乎没有走出房门，仅仅通过写明信片和外界联系，几乎不见外人。这样减少了很多的压力。我感觉与人交流越来越困难。我变得口吃了，我以前就有一点儿——在1989年我被抓时变得更加明显——但是以前不是很严重。我还做了很多的恶梦。
与此同时，我也渴望交流，渴望成为外面世界正在发生着的艺术行为的一部分。有一天，我拿起家里的东西，然后舔它们。那个时候我并没有认识到这是一件艺术作品。那就像重新接触世界一样。那时候，一位名叫San Mao（不敢确定是否为“三毛”）的艺术家住在我隔壁，当我做这些动作的时候，他开始为我拍照。这就是“交流1”的基础。
KS: This brings up an interesting question. You developed this method of “performing”—directly for the camera rather than for an audience—and still employ it as an approach to making your art. We can see from the photographs that some were clearly planned, and some feel as if they were almost a spontaneous decision to capture the moment. How did you decide what the actual art work was: was it the performance or action, or the photograph that recorded it?
CX: The actual experience of the live performance is still the most important part of my work. There is no substitute for the feeling of direct interaction between artist and live audience. It’s about what unfolds in the moment. But because my performance is often over in an instant—it only takes a moment to lick an object—I began to feel a need to prolong the moment. I decided photography could preserve the gesture for future audiences with the necessary clarity.

KS：这让我想到一个有趣的问题。您发展了这一“表演”的方法——直接对着摄像机而不是观众——而且至今仍使用它作为您创作艺术的一种途径。从照片中我们可以看出，一些动作是刻意安排的，另一些感觉好像是为了捕捉那一瞬间而做出来的。您如何判断什么是真正的艺术作品：它是表演或是行为，还是记录它的照片？
CX：现场表演仍然是我作品中最重要的一部分。没有任何事物可以取代艺术家和现场观众之间直接互动的感觉。那是一瞬间所呈现的。但是由于我的表演往往结束于一瞬间——去舔一样东西只要花瞬间的时间——我开始感觉到有必要延长那一瞬间。我认为摄影可以清楚地为将来的观众们保留那个姿势。

KS: I suppose there is also a specific relevance in using photography for the more recent Man and Sky as One series. Here, you travel to what appear to be very remote places to be photographed against the landscape. It is unlikely that an audience can accompany you there: one might ask if this voyage is deliberately intended to exclude the presence of an audience since we are only asked to look at the photographs?
CX:My performance works fall largely into two categories. The first is where I am completely alone in a place. I choose the location, the setting, and set up the camera on the tripod. I then insert myself in the frame, and having set the timer, photograph myself. That all becomes part of the performance process.
The second are the pieces done on the presence of an audience and which are aimed at providing a degree of interaction. The content of these works is usually more straightforward or immediate. For example, my Cang-style Aerobics series [where Cang Xin leads a group of audience members in performing the motion seen in his Communication 4 series, where he lies on the ground, face down, and arms spread wide, with his tongue on the ground] it is important that people experience the physical sensations of performing the action.
KS：我想，这与在最近的“天人合一”系列中运用摄影技术也有一种特殊的关联性。您前往看上去非常遥远的地方，然后以风景为背景进行摄影。观众是不可能陪伴您去那里的：那么有人会问这一旅程是不是意图将观众排斥在外而仅仅让我们来观看照片呢？
CX：我的表演作品大致划为两个种类。，第一部分就是我完全独自一人待在某个地方。我选择地点、进行布置，将相机支撑在三角架上。然后，我把自己放进取景框，设好定时器，拍下我自己。那些都成为了表演过程的一部分。
第二部分是在观众面前完成的内容，那也是为了提供一定程度的互动。这些作品的内容通常更加坦率或直接。例如，我的仓式体操系列 [其中，苍鑫领着一群观众做他们在“交流4”系列中看到的动作，他躺在地上，面部朝下，手臂伸开，舌头抵住地面] 对人们来说，感受表演这个动作时的身体感觉是非常重要的。

KS: In 2005, you created a very lifelike sculpture of yourself, identical in proportion in every detail. What was the thinking behind this?
CX:I was thinking about the issue of physical presence in a place. How important it is for the performer to be present in enacting the work: or if a sculptural form could serve the same purpose. I created an imitation “me” to see how the audience would react.

KS：2005年，您为您自己创作了一座塑像，和您的每个细节都等比例相同。这一创作背后的考虑是什么？
CX：我考虑到在某个地方身体的存在的问题。对于表演者而言，能够现场表演作品是多么得重要：或者是否一座雕塑形象可以达到同样的目的。我为自己做了一件仿造的“我”来看看观众如何反应。
KS:What did you discover?
CX:People found it very strange, because it is so lifelike. At first glimpse they couldn’t work it out. They found it quite shocking. One was shown in Shanghai in September 2007 at the International Art Fair. During the fair, I received a phone call asking if I was making a performance there. But it was just the sculpture. The person who called couldn’t believe I wasn’t there.
KS：您发现了什么？
CX：人们觉得它很奇怪，因为它是那么得栩栩如生。他们在看第一眼时无法解释。他们感到很震惊。一座这样的塑像在2007年9月的上海国际艺术博览会展出。在那次展览上，我接到一个电话询问我是否在那里表演。但是那只是我的塑像。打电话的人不敢相信我并不在那儿。

KS:Are we to understand this as a sculpture? If so, does this follow directly on from the Trampling Faces work in 1994? Or have there been other sculptural works in between?
CX: No, this was the first experiment with sculpture after Trampling Faces.

KS:Now you have begun a huge series of sculptural works that were initially created for the exhibition Cang Xin Mythology shown at Today Art Museum in 2007. These have no relation to your body per se, although your head and torso do feature in one or two of them. Should these be viewed as a completely new train of thought, and not part of your thinking about performance art, or it there a direct link in your mind?
CX:Well, I call these sculptural works. That basically means I have borrowed techniques and form from sculpture, but that the final works have no direct relation to sculptures themselves. For me, it is primarily a means of collating images and objects and presenting them to the public.
KS：我们是否能将这个塑像理解为雕塑？如果是，这是不是紧接着1994的作品“踩脸”之后的？或者，在两者之间还存在其他雕塑作品？
CX：没有了，这是“踩脸”之后的首次雕塑尝试。

KS：现在您开始创作一系列雕塑作品，那些作品最初是为了2007年在今日美术馆“苍鑫神话”展而创作的。这些和您身体本身没有任何关联，尽管您的头部和躯干曾经在一两件那些作品中出现过。这些能不能被认为是对观念的全新排列而不是您考虑行为艺术的一部分，或者它直接与您的思想有着联系？
CX：我把这些称之为雕刻作品。那在根本上意味着我从雕塑中借用了技巧和形式，但是最终作品与雕塑本身没有任何关系。对我而言，那就是整理形象和事物并将之展现在公众面的一种方法。

KS: I wonder if the use of your features has any relation to the reasons you chose to use them in the Trampling Faces. Perhaps you can explain pick up again about the impulse behind Trampling Faces?
CX:In the beginning it was related to the pressure of life in the East Village. In addition, beyond the immediate circle of performance, or East Village, artists, we didn’t receive much support from other part of the community. Many people thought we were just messing around. That this was not serious art.
Then there were pressures from the society around us, which neither understood nor wished to tolerate performance art. Hence the police attention that our activities inadvertently caused to be trained on us. It engendered a rather unhealthy response on our part.
Also, having been a part of the student movement in 1989, and forced to experience the crushing of individualism that resulted in its wake, I felt impelled to use my own face as an object that represented the individual, that I could place on the ground, and over which people would walk, crushing “me” and destroying my identity as they did. The impulse was violent. There was no respect for the individual in our society. But, my experience made me feel this more forcefully perhaps. Aside from the reaction to the student movement, life in the East Village was hard to say the least.

KS：我想知道，对于您的特征的运用是否与您选择在“踩脸”中运用它们有任何联系。或许您可否在此解释“踩脸”背后的创作冲动？
CX：最初它与在东村的生活压力有关。另外，在表演圈之外，或在东村，艺术家，我们并未从其他社区获得什么帮助。许多人认为我们只是乱糟糟的一团，而并不是什么严肃艺术。
随之而来的是社会对我们的压力，既不理解，也不愿接受行为艺术。因此，警察提醒我们注意那些不经意发生在我们身上的事情。那令我们产生了非常不健康的反应。
而且，作为1989年学生运动的一分子，并且被迫经历个人主义的碎裂，我感觉到强烈的冲动，想要用我自己的面孔作为一件代表个体的对象，我可以躺在地上，人们可以从我身上踏过，踩碎“我”，正如他们所做的那样摧毁我的个性。那份冲动是狂野的。在我们的社会中对个体没有任何尊敬。但是，或许是我的经历令这种感觉更加强烈。除了对那场学生运动的反应，至少应当提及东村艰难的生活。
KS:Were all of the 1,500 masks destroyed?
CX: Yes, all but one, which I believe was preserved by Hans van Dijk.

KS：是不是所有1500张面具都被踩毁了？
CX：是的，但有一个除外，就是我认为被汉斯(Hans van Dijk)保留下来的那个。

KS:Is it correct that the content of these sculptural works is also related to the images in your recent drawings, those created between 2004 and 2006, titled Shaman series? Again, I am reminded of your description of the weird and terrible dreams you had around 1995, during that period when you were kept yourself at home, and out of communication with the outside world.
CX:In the beginning, I was using my body, but through time, I began to feel that this couldn’t express completely the emotions I was grappling with. I began to read widely. The majority of the books I read were about magic, mythology, literature, and religion. The religion of ancient Persia, the Zoroastrians, which was the subject of Nietzsche’s text Thus Spake Zarathusta, and which emerged during the time of the Tang dynasty, and spread as far as Xinjiang. Another was Nestorianism, which also travelled into the west of China early on. Then, I became interested in Sufism, and another early religion known as Gnosticism. I read many books on subjects such as these. At this time, I was beginning an exploration of my ancestry and identity, pursuing a need for self-affirmation.
A big part of the reason I chose performance art as a means of self-expression is that I was looking for the most elemental and fundamental form of human expression possible. This led to the discovery of Shamanism and the urge to tap into my basic instincts.
Coming back to my art armed with this knowledge, I was keen to see if there was any way to establish a relationship between these elemental religions, and the impulses that directed my approach to making art. Through this exploration, I uncovered myriad symbols and motifs that fascinated me. It was around this time that I began to recall images from my dreams. Gradually, all of these elements found their way into the work.

KS：这些雕刻作品的内容也与您最近创作于2004和2006年之间的“萨满”系列绘画作品中的形象有关是吗？我又一次记起了您对巫师及1995年前后所做噩梦的描述，在那段时期您将自己关在家中，脱离了与外部世界的联系。
CX：最初，我运用身体创作，但随着时间流逝，我开始感觉到那样不能完整表达我的情感。我开始进行广泛的阅读。我所读的大部分书籍都是关于巫术、神话、文学以及宗教。古代波斯的宗教，索罗亚斯德教，这是尼采“查拉如斯特拉如是说”一文中的主题，出现在唐朝时期，远播至新疆。另一个是景教，也在早些时候传入中国西部地区。那时，我对苏非派禁欲神秘主义产生了兴趣，这是另一个早期的宗教，被称为诺斯替教。我读了很多这些方面的书籍。这时候，我开始探索我的祖先和个性，寻求对自我的认定。
我选择行为艺术作为自我表达方式的很大一部分原因是，我在寻找人类情感最基本、最本质的形式。这引出了对萨满教的发现和探究我内在本能的强烈欲望。
回到我用这些知识武装起来的艺术上，我很想知道是否有什么方法能够在这些基本的宗教之间建立联系，这股冲动牵引着我进行艺术创作。通过这次探究，我发掘了种种令我入迷的符号和主题。就是在这个时期，我开始从我的梦中回忆影像。渐渐地，这些元素都找到了进入作品的途径。

KS: In the drawings, we see that a number of the visual elements have been appropriated from recognisable photographs or images. So you do not rely entirely on your own imagination when constructing a work?
CX: I borrow from things that dovetail with my visual needs. If you recall the image of myself suspended within a block of ice…there is a photograph just like that. I simply substituted my own head.

KS：在素描作品中，我们看到大量视觉元素从可辨认的照片或形象中被剥离出来。因此，您并不是完全依赖您自己的想象来创作作品的是吗？
CX：我在与我的视觉需要吻合的事物中取得借鉴。如果您回想我悬浮在冰面上那个景象……有一副照片就像那样的。我只是简单地替换了我的头部。

KS: We can see in the drawings a number of religious gestures or allusions to religious symbolism. I was particularly struck by the drawing of the tree. In European mythology the tree in this form is commonly known as the tree of life, which you seem to indicate with the presence of a baby in the earth beneath it—and which is an image that occurs repeatedly in your sculptures and drawings. In the first drawings, the baby also appeared in the scene depicting the interior of an industrial factory. What do they represent as motifs in this work, or how should they be interpreted?
CX:The factory is an actual space in 798. I made two works about this particular factory. The first is based on the big machine plant. It has a futuristic feel. The second focuses on outmoded machine parts that have been abandoned. Here you see a number of babies, not living but dead. This all relates to the images in a dream I once had.
One day, I took a taxi from Dongzhimen out towards 798. The area between the two places was once the main burial ground in Beijing in ancient times, right up to the Great Qing—at least, that’s what the taxi driver told me. I had been living 798 for three years, and I had had repeated dreams about grave sites. I was so stunned by his comment that I decided to make this the subject of a work.

KS：在画面中，我们可以看到很多宗教手势或对宗教符号的暗示。特别是对树的描画打动了我。在欧洲神话中，这种形象的树通常被认为是生命之树，您似乎是用躺在树下的一个婴儿来表现它的——而且这也是在您的雕塑和绘画场景中经常出现的一个形象。在某幅画作中，婴儿也出现在描写一座工厂内部的场景中。他们作为作品中的主题代表了什么，或说该如何诠释他们？
CX：那工厂是798一处真实的地方。我为这个工厂创作了两幅作品。第一副以巨大的机器为基础。那是一种未来主义的感觉。第二幅作品以废弃的老旧机器零部件为主。这些都与我曾经的一次梦境有关。
有一天，我从东直门外打车前往798。这两个地点之间的一片地方，在古时候, 在清代时候是北京的主要墓葬地，最起码，出租车司机是这么告诉我的。我已经在798住了三年了，我始终重复着有关墓地的梦。我被那个司机的话惊呆了，于是决定就这个主题创作一件作品。

KS:Was this series of drawings all related to specific events? What the medium of pencil drawing chosen to suit the subject or do you draw anyway?
CX: This first series was related to specific set of ideas, but I am still using drawing techniques to create works. Now they are much larger: many as big as five meters long by two meters high.

KS:It must be hard to work on this scale?
CX: We use Chinese xuan (rice) paper, and mount it in the traditional way as a scroll. It can then be hung easily for exhibition and rolled up to protect it when it’s in storage. These large works were initially conceived for the exhibition at the Mook Gallery, in 798, also in 2007, and to be shown together with stainless steel sculptures and photographic works. This was a slightly different focus from the wood sculptures, charcoal works, and other photographs and a film work that were shown at the same time in Today Art Museum (TAM).

KS：是不是这一系列的绘画都与特殊的事件有关？什么样的介质被您选择通过钢笔画来适应这样的主题或说您以什么方式作画？
CX：第一个系列与特殊的想法有关，但是我仍然运用绘画技巧来创作作品。现在这些作品大了许多：许多作品长达五米高两米。

KS：在这么大的面积上作画肯定很困难吧？
CX：我们使用中国的宣纸，并且按照传统方式将它装裱为卷轴。这样它可以很容易地被挂起来展出，入库时，也可以轻易收卷起来进行保护。这些作品起初是为了也在2007年举行的位于798的墨画廊的画展而构思的，而且还将与不锈钢雕塑和摄影作品一起展出。这与同一时间在今日美术馆展出的木雕、木炭作品、其他摄影作品和一部电影作品有些微的不同。
KS: Can you describe these new works? The sculptures have similar qualities to totem art. They also continue with many of the motifs found in the drawings. Are the sculptural works all of this type?
CX: Not all. The wood sculptures fall into three groups. The first are the carved pillars. The smallest is five and a half metres high, and the tallest stands fourteen metres high. There are ten in all, each of various heights in between. I chose to put seven in the main hall at TAM, and one in the open space outside.

KS: How long did these take to complete?
CX: More than six months in all. I used two types of wood. One is wutong wood, from Hebei. These came in four metre lengths, each having a diameter of one meter. We reduced these to one metre sections for the carving process, and then joined them together again to create the desired height for each specific piece.
The other wood came from Africa. It’s a hard wood. Each piece came in a length of fourteen metres. The original trees are enormous. The wood is shipped in lengths of more than twenty meters, and those are cut from much longer lengths. It is an expensive wood, each section being about 20,000RMB. But it is inexpensive when you consider the quality.

KS: In terms of the work, does one “totem” represent one work, or is the work the group of pillars together?
CX: It’s the whole group. However, I could only use eight of the ten for the exhibition at TAM, because I was not satisfied with two of the columns. There was nothing I could do to save them. They just weren’t right.

KS: You had a team of wood carvers working on the project. How did you instruct them to ensure you got the result you intended?
CX: I appointed a chief carver from Henan. He is a professional wood carver with more than ten years of experience. He put together a team of 18 people from a community of wood carvers in Zhejiang. They are all highly experienced.

KS: This is a big project then?
CX: Yes, and that is only a part of it. The second part comprises fourteen sculptural pieces each approximately 80cm in diameter and 120cm high. These were carved to the desired shape and then fired in a kiln to become charcoal. We then inject a clear resin into the charred wood to preserve the structure of each piece. They have a rather abstract, or organic, quality. The large wood carvings are very concrete in form, for they are covered with animals and figures, even where those are of my own inventing. The charcoal works have a different weight, partly due to the black colour, but also because they have a slightly watery sheen from the protective coat of resin, and due to their simple organic forms.
Firing each piece in the kiln was a very delicate process. If you don’t get it right that the wood is reduced to ashes. It takes approximately one month to fire each piece. We built a kiln around each section of wood. This would be fired for 15 days, and then left another 15 days to cool. The lump of wood can only be removed when the fire has gone out completely. If the work catches alight again in the open air then you definitely end up with a pile of ash.
In addition, there is a series of carved “curiosities”, each about 150-200cm high. I intend to produce fifty individual pieces, but this will be a work in progress for the moment. These comprise all manner of fantastical animals and plant life of my own invention.
Finally, there’s a 3D animation film which took almost a year to complete. It also required a team of twelve animators specialized in 3D work. It’s called Cang-style Shamanism. I provided the script. It includes a character based on myself, as well as a number of strange creatures. In the first scene, I sacrifice a sheep, taking its heart. In the next scene, I put the heart on the earth, and set it ablaze with fire. In the background you can hear chanting. You can see all manner of spirits flying in the air. It’s all about examining the essence of humanity, and its origins, before civilisation began, and ultimately questioning the nature of civilisation’s advance. Especially the “progress” associated with industrialisation.
KS：您能描述一下这些新作品吗？雕塑与图腾艺术有着类似的性质。它们也延续了许多在绘画中体现的主题。这些雕刻作品是不是都是这种类型的？
CX：并不都是。木雕作品分为三类。第一类是雕柱。最小的一件作品是5.5米高，最大的一件作品有14米高。一共有十件雕柱作品，高度都不尽相同。我选了七件放在TAM的主厅，一件放在外面的露天场地。

KS：这些工作花了多长时间完成？
CX：总共有六个多月。我使用了两种木头。一种叫梧桐木，来自河北。它们运过来的时候高达四米，每根直径都有一米。我们为了雕刻把它们截成一米高的圆柱，然后再根据每件作品需要的高度将它们重新组装起来。
另一种木头来自非洲。那是一种硬木。每一件运来的时候长达14米。原始的树木是巨大的。这些木头在海运中长达20多米，到我手中的已经被砍掉很长部分了。这种木头很贵，每一段大约要20000块钱。不过，如果你考虑到质量，那就不算贵了。

KS：从作品来看，是不是一个“图腾”就代表一件作品，或者是整个雕柱作品集和在一起？
CX：这是一件整体作品。尽管如此，我只能将十件雕柱中的八件放在TAM展览，因为我对剩下的两件不甚满意。我没办法去对它们进行修改。它们就是不对劲而已。

KS：您有一支木雕团队从事这个项目。您如何对他们进行说明以确保获得您想要的结果？
CX：我从邯郸预约了一位主雕刻师。他是一位拥有十多年经验的职业木雕者。他从浙江的一个团体里面召集了18位木雕者组成一个团队。他们都非常有经验。

KS：这肯定是一项大工程了？
CX：是的，而这仅仅是其中的一部分。第二部分包括14件雕塑作品，每件大约为直径80厘米，高度120厘米。这些被要求雕刻成所要求的形态，然后进入烧窑中烤成木炭。然后我们为烧烤过的树木注入干净的树脂以保持每件作品的结构。他们具有更加抽象的，或有机的品质。大型的雕刻品形象非常具体，上面刻满了动物和形象，甚至其中有一些是我自己创造的。木炭作品的重量不一样，一部分是由于黑色的缘故，但是也因为它们有一层保护性的树脂发出轻微的水样光辉，并且也由于它们简单的有机式样。
在烧窑里烧烤每件作品是一个非常复杂的过程。如果火候掌握不好，木头就会成为灰烬。大概花了一个月的时间来烧烤每件作品。我们在每件木头的周围都建造了一个烧窑。烧烤将持续15天时间，再用另外15天时间进行冷却。只有当火焰完全熄灭之后，才能移动木块。如果作品在外界空气中重新燃着了一丁点的火花，那么你最终只能得到一堆灰烬。
除此之外，还有一个“好奇”系列的雕刻作品，每件高约150至200厘米。我想要做出50件作品来，但这是一项费时间的工作。这些包含了所有由我自己创造的神奇的动物和植物的生命形式。
最后，还有一部花费了近一年时间完成的3D动画电影。12位精通3D技术的动画制作者完成了这项作品。它被称为“苍鑫式萨满教”。我提供了剧本。其中包括一个以我为原型的人物，以及许多奇怪的生物。第一幕场景中，我供奉了一只羊，取出了它的心脏。下一个场景中，我将这颗心脏放在大地上，然后用火点燃。背景音乐是圣歌。你能看到在天空中飞舞着各种神灵。这些都是在探寻文明开始之前人性的根本和起源，最终质问了文明进程的本质。特别是与工业化相伴的“过程”。

KS: What led you to use wood as charcoal for your work?
CX: The underlying theme of the recent works is the five elements: jin mu shui huo tu (metal, wood, water, fire, and earth). You see that there are a number of different metals used for the sculptural works. Wood can take several forms, charcoal being one of them. So it was about using each of the materials in all possible ways.

KS:In recent years, in view of the drawings, the sculptures and now the film work, has the time taken to produce these reduced the amount of time and energy you have been able to devote to performance work?
CX:I have been doing Cang-style Aerobics series almost every month somewhere around the world. I just returned from Spain. Before that I was in Japan, and before that in Germany. The choice of interactive performance has much to do with my own experience in China. In order to survive, people are constantly jumping from one activity to the next, always changing jobs. So, it was also about identity. Mine has certainly changed a lot in China, in terms of the jobs I have had to take, and my development as an artist. Perhaps my final performance will be exchanging my clothes for the raiment of a Shaman.

KS:So, this search for identity also explains the three series of photographs that you created titled Identity Exchange in 2003, depicting the clothes-swap with people of various professions and identities? Who was the first?
CX: A girl from a karaoke club. She had no idea about art. It was arranged through a friend.

KS：是什么让您将木头作为木炭使用在您的作品中的？
CX：最近作品中所隐含的有五个因素：金、木、水、火、土。你可以看到在雕刻作品中运用了许多不同种类的金属。木头可以表现为多种形式，木炭只是其中一种。因此，这只是关于如何将每一件材料都按所有可能的方式加以运用的问题。

KS：在最近几年，从绘画角度看来，雕刻和现在的这部电影作品，它们是否为您节省了时间而且令您能够全身心地投入表演工作中？
CX：几乎每个月，我都要在世界各地进行苍式健身操的系列活动。我刚刚从西班牙回来。在那之前，我在日本，日本之前，我在德国。互动式表演的选择与我在中国的经历有很大关系。为了生存，很多人从一个行业跳转到另一个行业，经常更换工作。因此，这也是有关个性的问题。在我所必需进行的工作以及我作为艺术家的发展中，我的个性在中国已经改变了很多。或许我的最终表演将是换上萨满巫师的服装。

KS：因此，这种对于个性的追求也能够解释您2003年“身份”摄影的三个系列吗？其中您描绘了与不同职业和个性的人交换衣服的场景。谁是第一位？
CX：一个来自卡拉OK俱乐部的女孩。她对艺术没有任何概念。这是通过一个朋友介绍的。

KS: How did you go about approaching the other people after that?
CX:Most were introduced through friends. It is quite an extreme thing to do, so it had to be handled carefully, and people had to be talked through the procedure and idea. They had to be comfortable with the fact that they were going to appear in public, perhaps in perpetuity. For Asian people, to put one’s body in the public eye, and almost naked, is a tremendous challenge, taboo even.

KS: How many Chinese people are in your series?
CX: Twenty-seven in total. They were from all over China.

KS: I was amazed to see a high court judge in the UK series.
CX: That was a set up. Out of all the photographs taken only two are set-ups. The judge and the Beefeater [the Queen’s guard in London famed for the tall, furry hats (the beefeaters) they wear].

KS: I could tell there was something wrong with the Beefeater as he was shorter than you. The Spanish series is slightly different again, isn’t it?
CX: We did this in just one month in Barcelona. It was a more relaxed approach than in the UK, where most people represent a profession. The Spanish series suggests personalities more than professions.

KS: I noticed a new image of coalminers in a defunct mine. Where was this taken?
CX: In Xiuzhou, in an old mine. This is part of a new series that I haven’t had more time to develop yet. It focuses on heavy industrial plants, factories in “dirty” or polluting industries like concrete or steel, or mining. It’s not easy to find these locations or to set up the shot.

KS: The blue sky is at odds with our impressions of mines, and indeed the miners, who are also very clean, too clean. Was this deliberate?
CX: Yes. I wanted to show that the miners are still human. There have been so many deaths in China in recent years. To show them covered in soot would have turned them into an anonymous mass.

KS: How is the thinking behind the performance images created in Guilin, which also show workers standing in holes in the ground, similar to the miners?
CX: This can be said to relate to the experience in the East Village, the pressure of living within Chinese society whilst filled with the desire to obtain that freedom of expression we idealized in art. Things have changed enormously, but we still feel constrained. So it’s like being half way there—the other half imprisoned in a small space, or stuck in a hole.

KS: I wonder if you actually obtained freedom to the degree you imagine if you would still be able to function as an artist? Freedom is a bit like having choices: too many, and it’s hard to know what to do.
CX: I am aware of this problem. If I was free to choose my life al over again, I would definitely not choose to be an artist. I think it’s an extremely painful profession.

KS: Compared with when you started out, contemporary art in China today is generally accepted. The reason for this interview was your forthcoming exhibition at TAM. To have an exhibition in one of the best spaces in Beijing in such an important year for the city—and what is possibly a highly sensitive time—seems something of an achievement: something to celebrate, no? In view of this, and the many opportunities afforded you today—you earlier mentioned you go abroad almost every month—what is the cause of this pain?
CX: Survival, I guess. Making art needs to be a habit. It’s like a game, where you continually have to introduce a new element to the game, or you loose. The hardest part is the constant need to go beyond yourself and not to “repeat”, or to follow the same train of thought.
I can’t speak for other artists, but in my own work I am very hard on myself and set very high demands of my work. That’s why I chose performance in the first place. It has to be real, and about reality if it’s to mean anything. That requires an enormous amount of reflection, the ability to endure, and a degree of stoicism. That’s the root of all the pressure. It’s only when you can confront all these things that new ideas emerge.

KS: Looking back at your body of work, can you point to one that you feel is most successful…and by comparison, one that in your view represents a failure?
CX: There are still so many things I haven’t had time to develop. I am not entirely satisfied with any previous works. Perhaps, in hindsight, the exhibition at TAM will have proved an opportunity to gain some perspective. The works shown there took so many different forms and were created using a variety of media, so it achieved a good overview of my practice.

KS: If each work represents a new learning experience, the more works you produce means the more “educated” you become, surely?
CX: I guess you could say that.

KS: It took almost two years to complete the works for the TAM exhibition. What direction do you think your work will take in the coming years?
CX: I think there will be more cross-over in the use of materials or forms. I’m interested to learn if the expressive power of an artwork becomes clearer when different materials or forms are combined, or if the combination confuses the issue. If you look at an artist such as Matthew Barney, in America it is possible for artists to develop materials specifically to suit the requirements of their work. But China lags far behind America or Europe.

KS: But if Matthew Barney was to see your monumental carved totems, and know that you had been able to import this extraordinary wood from Africa, and that you had employed a team of 18 professional carvers to achieve it, I think he’d be impressed. In Europe, to have one assistant is already considered a major achievement. Then there are the ecological and moral constraints. One would have to say that you have an enormous number of advantages and freedoms at your fingertips. Doesn’t it all depend upon how you use these?
CX: Of course. But China still suffers from the “Made in China” label, and the fact that most people think things from China are fake, or rough, or shoddy. There is no “handmade” in China that has the same prestige as it does in Europe. The obvious example can be found in the Wenzhou manufacturing model. It has everything imaginable and in the greatest volume anyone could want. I used to think that the future of industrialized civilisation was embodied in the production line of the American Ford motor car. But if China becomes an economic superpower, then Wenzhou’s manufacturing mechanism will have an impact upon the whole world economy.
Artists in China are simply following the same model. It’s about quantity not quality: we can have many people to do the job for us, but few of them have the inherent skills to do it well.

KS: But art surely depends upon the concept, the core idea. If the initial concept is flawed, then these aspects are irrelevant. But if the concept is powerful…
CX: Exactly, but cheap land and low labour costs will result in many poor quality works.

KS: What decided the scale of the series of carved columns: surely the things we have just discussed—low labour costs, low material costs—had an impact? Also, the opportunity to show these works at TAM, which has the single largest exhibition hall in Beijing?
CX: They probably all were of some influence. The space in particular, since the ceiling in the main hall is so high. That led to the decision to create the columns. In Chinese culture, proportion is everything, from architecture, to artefacts, to pictorial space. I decided to invoke this in the scale of my work.

KS: But what a huge operation, involving so many people and energy to produce this series for a month-long exhibition [in fact the exhibition time had to be shortened to just over two weeks].
CX: It was something of a gamble to be sure.

KS: It reminds me of the fact that every single one of the masks created for Trampling Faces had the time and date that you cast it written on the back. If these were to be destroyed, why was it important to go to so much trouble to take the time to note these details?
CX: The mask represented both myself as a person, and an identity. Existence is so fleeting. I felt it was necessary to commemorate this, even if destruction was imminent.

KS: The new works remind me of those very early Chinese wood carvings which date approximately to the Late Eastern Zhou period, where one sees an approximation of a human head, crowned with a set of antlers, and with the tongue hanging almost down to its feet. This seems to combine the fundamental elements of your recent works.
CX: I have not seen these, but it’s funny, I was born in the year of the ram. There are several sheep in my wood carvings. And, of course, I am known for sticking my tongue out at the world…
I would say that these symbols are what make my art unusual in China. The topics it addresses are not the ones people might expect. I’m extremely interested in China’s ancient culture, especially north of the Great Wall. That’s where my own origins can be found, so it’s fitting that my art is drawing me back there.

KS：随后您是如何接近其余人的？
CX：大多数都是通过朋友介绍的。这是一件非常极端的事情，因此处理起来必须非常谨慎，人们必须要被告知整个过程和其中的理念。他们必须要对即将出现在公众面前或是成为永恒而感到自然。对于亚洲人来说，将某人的躯体放置在公众眼里，而且是几乎全裸的，这是具有极端挑战性的，甚至是一种禁忌。

KS：在您的系列中有多少位中国人？
CX：总共有27位。他们都来自中国各地。

KS：我很惊讶能够看到英国高等法官。
CX：那是预先准备的。整个摄影作品只有两个是提前准备的。法官和伦敦塔卫士（在伦敦的女王卫士，以他们所戴的高高的、羽毛装饰的帽子而著名（被称为吃牛肉的人））。

KS：我要说的是，伦敦塔卫士看着比您要矮这是不太对的。西班牙系列也有细小的不同，是吗？
CX：我们在巴塞罗那仅仅用了一个月来做这些。这比在英国还要复杂，在英国大多数人代表了一种职业。西班牙系列暗示个性多过职业。

KS：我注意到一幅有关一位在废弃煤矿里的采矿者的形象。这是在哪里拍到的？
CX：在宿州，一个老煤窑里面。这是我还未曾有更多时间去发展的一个新系列的一部分。它重点是重型工业机械、“脏乱”的工厂或污染企业，如混凝土或钢铁或采矿。要找到这些地点或是设置这个场景是不容易的。

KS：蔚蓝的天空和我们对于煤矿的印象不太一致，而实际上，采矿者的外表也非常干净，太干净了。这是故意安排的？
CX：是的。我想表现的是，采矿者也是人。每年，在中国，煤矿要死很多人。为了展现煤灰掩盖下的他们就要让他们转变为一种无名的形象。

KS：您在桂林创作的表演形象背后的考虑是怎样的？那些仍然是一些工人站在地面的大坑旁，看上去与采矿者很相像。
CX：这应该说与在东村的经历有关，生存在中国人之间的压力，那种压力充满了对表达自由的向往，这些是我们在艺术中理想再现的。环境已经改变了很多，但是我们依然感觉压抑。所以，那就像只走了一半的路程——另一半被困在了一个小地方，或被束缚在一个洞中。

KS：我想知道，如果您还可以作为一个艺术家进行活动，您是否能够真正实现您所想象的自由？自由有点儿像选择题：选项太多，而且很难知道应该怎样做。
CX：我对这个问题认识很清醒。如果我能够完全重新选择我的人生，我肯定不再选择成为一名艺术家。我认为这是一个非常痛苦的职业。

KS：与您刚出道时相比，今天的中国已经普遍接纳了当代艺术。这次采访的原因是您即将在今日美术馆举行的展览。在对这个城市如此重要的一年——也是高度敏感的一个时期——在北京最好的展馆之一举行展出，似乎是某种成就的表现：一些值得庆祝的事情，不是？从这件事看来，以及今天您所赋予的众多机遇——您刚才曾提到过您几乎每个月都要出国——那么，痛苦的来源是什么？
CX：生存，我猜是这样。创造艺术需要成为一种习惯。那就像一个游戏，你要不断地向游戏中添加新元素，否则你就要失败。最艰难的部分就是要不断地超越你自己而且不能“重复”，也不能遵循同样的思想轨迹。
我不能说其他的艺术家也是这样，但在我自己的作品中，我对自己非常严格并且对作品设定了非常高的要求。那就是为什么我选择在第一个地点进行表演的原因。那必须是真实的，如果它要诉说什么，那就必须是具有真实性的。那需要大量的深思熟虑、忍耐力和忍受痛苦的能力。那是所有压力的根源。只有在你能够面对这一切的时候，新的思想才会出现。

KS：回顾您的作品，您能指出一幅您认为是最成功的作品来吗？……相反的，哪一件作品在您看来是一个失败？
CX：目前仍然有太多的事情我没有时间去完善。我对任何一件过去的作品都不是百分百满意的。或许，事后才会明白，在TAM的展览将能为一些前景提供机会。在那里展示的作品采用了大量不同的形式并且运用了各种类型的媒介，因此它能够很好的概括我的实践行为。

KS：如果每件作品都代表了一个新的学习经历，那是否意味着您创作的作品越多，您就变得越有“知识”呢？
CX：我想可以那样理解。

KS：完成今日美术馆展览花费了您大约两年的时间。在以后的年份里，您认为您的作品将走向哪个方向？
CX：我认为，在材料或形式的运用中将出现更多的跨接。我很想知道，当不同的材料或形式混合在一起的时候，某一件艺术作品的表达能力是不是变得更清晰，或者这种混合是否会模糊主题。如果你对美国的某位艺术家例如马修•巴尼 (Matthew Barney) 进行了解，你会发现，艺术家有可能会为了满足作品需要而发展新的特殊材料。但是中国在这一点上远远落后于美国或欧洲。

KS：但是，如果马修•巴尼(Matthew Barney)看到您纪念碑式的雕刻图腾，并且知道您有能力从非洲进口这些特殊的木材，您还雇用了一支18人的职业雕刻者团队来完成这项工作，我想他会大感震惊的。在欧洲，能够有一个助手就已经是很大的成功了。而且，那里还有生态和道德上的约束条件。不得不说您的指尖跳跃着无数的优点和自由。难道那不是完全依赖于您如何运用它们吗？
CX：当然。但是中国仍然遭受“中国制造”标签带来的损失，事实上，许多人认为从中国来的东西都是假冒的、粗糙的或是劣质的。在中国，“手工制造”并不像在欧洲一样拥有同等的地位。最明显的例子可以从温州制造模式中发现。它有你所能想到的所有东西，而且任何人想要多少都能够有。我曾经认为工业化文明的将来具体表现在美国福特汽车生产线内。但是，如果中国成为了经济超级大国，那么温州的制造机制将对整个世界经济造成影响。
在中国的艺术家都简单地遵循同样的模式。那就是追求数量而非质量：我们可以让很多人为我们工作，但是他们中几乎没有人具备与良好地完成工作相匹配的技能。

KS：但是艺术确实依赖于观念，核心观念。如果最初的观念就有缺陷，那么外观也就无法切题。但是如果观念是具有力量的……
CX：非常正确，但是便宜的土地和廉价劳动力导致的是许多低质量的产品。

KS：是什么决定了雕刻系列的规模：当然，这些事情我们刚才已经讨论过的——廉价的劳动力成本，低廉的材料成本——对此有影响吗？并且，是否影响了此次在今日美术馆展出作品的机会？今日美术馆可是具有全北京最大的展厅的。
CX：所有这些可能都会有一些影响的。特别是地点问题，因为主展厅的天花板非常高。这才做出了创作尺寸的决定。在中国文化中，比例就是一切，从建筑到人工产物，再到绘画空间。我决定将这一点引用到我的作品范畴中。

KS：但那是一项工程浩大的运作，涉及那么多的人，牵扯了如此大的精力来为这一个月的展览创作出这个系列的作品（实际上，展览时间不得不被缩短到大约两周多一点儿。）
CX：那有几分赌博的性质在里面。

KS：那令我想起了，为“踩脸”所做的每一个面具背后，您都标上了制作时间和日期。如果这些面具是要被毁掉的，那么为什么要那么费事记录下时间和日期这么多细节呢？
CX：面具既代表了作为一个人的我自己，也代表了一种个性。存在是如此的短暂。我感觉有必要来纪念这些，即使毁灭即将来临。

KS：新的作品让我想起了那些非常古老的、能够追溯到东周晚期的早期中国的木雕作品，能够看出那件作品是一个人的头颅，头戴鹿角一样的王冠，舌头下垂，几乎要碰到它的脚了。看上去这融合了您最近作品的基本元素。
CX：我没有看过那些木雕作品，不过那很有趣，我出生在动荡的年代。在我的木雕中有几只绵羊。当然，我是因为伸出我的舌头而闻名的……
我要说的是，就是这些象征性元素令我的艺术在中国与众不同。它所讨论的话题并不是人们所期望的。我对中国古代文化特别感兴趣，特别是长城以北。在那里，我能找到自己的根源，因此，是我的艺术把我带回了那里。